Undestanding the Combat Engine

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    • Undestanding the Combat Engine

      First of all I do believe this is the gist of the combat engine there are some things that I don't know the weighting of but people keep saying how come I didn't slaughter them in the first hour.

      Rule one 6 units vs 1 unit is not 6 against 1, its 1 against 1 6 times. just to present if you have 6 infantry level 1 and they have 1 infantry lvl 2 just to add some complexity. With out modifiers we get a 4 attacking a 5 defense why does the 6 stack take so long to kill the 1 because at a base level you are getting no hits against them they parry or duck every shot. So here comes the modifiers lets say for the sake of argument you get an unknown multiplier for each unit .2 for each unit on the attack side. This would be an offensive # so each unit now fires at 5.2 vs 5 so you do .2 pts damage to his HP's in the mean time he has done 1 hp of damage because there is no defensive number to add to the attacker. So at the end of the first battle you have reduced his 20 hit points by 1.2 and his morale will be .94. This is actually the initial resolution had both armies started at 100%

      You on the other hand one unit in your stack suffers a 1 point hit. Why because he only gets 1 shot. So your morale is 595/6 99.1

      Now if there were no other factors this battle will take 16 hours to resolve but there is another factor its morale vs morale again I don't know the exact number but if its a deduction against defense of 2% in the loss of defense for every 5% of morale differential.

      After battle 1 there is a 5 + in morale difference so now his base defense is going to lose 2% or 4.9 so each shot now is 5.2 vs 4.9 or 1.8 you still lose 1Pt against that first man to fire etc. He survives another hour now down to 17 hit points. etc etc etc. you do the long math.

      That is a primary battle excluding bonuses and fortress defense which can add 20 hours to a battle or more.

      So Step 2 understanding the mixed Battle

      The key is this Calvary shoots first against Cannon so if you have 6 cavalry against a canon and an infantry The canon dies first but now you have a healthy infantry facing only Calvary. IF there are no Canon then the Calvary would charge other Calvary and infantry would be last.

      If you have 1 Calvary and 2 cannon against an equal number of infantry the attacker will likely lose because it will take more turns to kill the Calvary than they can withstand unharmed cannon shooting at them. What happens here is Inf vs Cal Inf vs Cal Inf vs Cal (Cal lives) the key here is Calvary usually have more HP's to begin with so although it was damaging the cannon got 2 free shots at the 1st In and almost kill it. So second round you kill the Calvary but its now 2 on 2 with the both cannon not taking damage. Thus 1 cavalry for every 2 cannon can be a very effective defense against infantry only. Put a fortress around them they never stood a chance do the math you will see that 6 infantry will lose a majority of the time.

      The last great unknown, I have seen a 1 on 6 win here the X factor did the larger troops in. What is the X factor don't know its a randomized smaller force automatic win % that it happens maybe 1 in 5000 battles but it is out there. Its out there in revolts to where the natives defeat an army of 4 units that's the largest I've seen.

      I'm not saying this battle engine is fair or well balanced but when you take in the above functions its not unreasonable and fits the style of the SLOW game.

      Key to setting up armies Calvary first against Canon cavalry Infantry in that order
      Infantry first against cavalry, Infantry, Cannon in that order
      Canon first against Infantry, Canon, Cavalry

      I believe defense gets the honor of first shot.

      I'm sure a game developer could tell me if I'm close but they probably will comment "Interesting"

      The post was edited 1 time, last by slomoney ().

    • While I agree in general with rule one above, my observations are a bit different. I believe each unit is lined up to fire at one enemy unit - I believe each unit takes it's shot at the enemy unit it is most effective at killing (to get the greatest strength value and number of shots), and also every enemy unit must be shot once before any unit can be doubled up on (so one target artillery can only have one cavalry shoot at it - if there are multiple cavalry the excess can attack the artillery only if there are enough other units). I think that each strength point gets a chance (+- random X factor of inflicting a hit) of 1 hit point or or .2 or nothing (since that is how the damage seems to be taken). I am speculating that the normal hit chance is something like this:

      0 to 10% 2 hit points damage
      11 to 25% 1 hit point damage
      26 to 50% .6 hit point damage
      51 to 60% .4 hit point damage
      61 to 75% .2 hit point damage
      76 to 100% miss

      So for example:

      Lvl 1 Regular Infantry versus Level 1 Regular Infantry in the Plains. Each would be able to fire 4 times and inflict a maximum of 8 hit points each fire if extremely lucky (or strong X factor for it) versus nothing (if X factor against it causing misses). Thus the quickest it could kill the opposing Regular Infantry would be 3 rounds (2 hours) and it could easily go longer depending on the resolution.

      Every time 20 hit points (or 10 against artillery) is tallied up a unit is removed. Note: when you go in damaged the enemy has to do less to get to the 20 point threshold and remove a unit. This is why the large army will still tend to win - but the smaller force can potentially inflict more damage if it is in that 2 hit points while the larger force is doing an average of .4 each. All of this is speculation - but I think something like this is easier to program and introduce a random X factor.

      I think forts reduce the damage taken by the defender - if the round would normally do the defender 2.4 hit points of damage - that would be reduced 15% by a level 1 fort to 2 hit points of damage.

      I believe in Q&A I read a thread that morale is just the percentage of hit points remaining in the units compared to 100%. So it has no real effect on the combat.

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Rob Robs ().

    • Rob Robs wrote:

      and also every enemy unit must be shot once before any unit can be doubled up on (so one target artillery can only have one cavalry shoot at it -
      I will definitely disagree with this as an example I have fought in rounds where there were 40 v 12. The 10 defending were against 4 cavalry 3 infantry and 5 cannon. His were all infantry. The canon did not suffer a single hit against them until round 5 when the other 7 units were gone. So the canon were not being hit as its the lowest priority to an infantry unit in the mean time my cannon were taking out an average of 4 infantry per round. This validates it only shoots at the target it's highest strength against. Yes there was a level 1 fortress involved had it been a level 2 I believe I would have wiped his army out. I watched all 5 hours and recorded the damages. I would also believe it to invalidate the scaled premise of hit or miss The X factor did show up in one of the hours when I believe a shot took out 2 infantry as he lost 7 in the 6th hour where a single canon shot did 20 - 40 damage when the differential was about 5 pts of damage per canon shot. From there some reinforcements were added and the numbers were a little askew with the new high morale avg. as jump in my troops. He finally won the battle when a 10 unit army reinforced which included cavalry, his units he was down to 8 infantry against 2 canon. His force multiplier on the last hour before battle was only doing less than 1 hp damage to my canons. Which is why I think it is more dependent on starting differential and force multiplier than a % chance of hit and an assigned random hit %.

      Again if it were shot is a randomized range of damage why have defensive numbers at all?

      The post was edited 2 times, last by slomoney ().

    • everyone quoting big mix battles but to show the mechanincs lets simplify a bit.

      this is as far as my understanding and will ignore the ramdomizer %, just understand this is a GENERAL way it works and could be different ingame due to modifiers.

      ok so EXAMPLES:

      lt reg cav lvl 4 : 25hp 3/6/9 (INF/CAV/ART)

      lt reg inf lvl 1 : 20hp 4/4/2

      so 2 cavs vs 1 inf: the cav 'technically' can't hit the inf because their defense is the same as their offense against cav(4) and the cav offense is 3. so the first round the cavs lose 1. they have 50 hp so lotsa chances for a randomizer to help, but thats the only way a cav will hit inf. Once they start losing HP then off/def values start lowering and the cavs will have a better chance to hit. without running a buncha tedious math, its gonna be close and the randomizers will play a big role in who wins.
      in a straight fight no random, inf win everytime, but w randomizers i'd say inf win 3/4 but it would be a long drawn out battle. better to send reinforcements asap.

      example 2

      heavy reg art lvl 4 : 15 hp 11/3/7.5
      lt reg inf lvl 1: 20 hp 4/4/2

      so 1 art vs 2 inf: the art causes 9hp damage per round, excluding mods so 5 rounds art wins w only any damage from randomized lucky hits


      conclusion : art rules ;)
    • As an experienced CoW player, but an utter noob in this game, I am trying to understand and follow. Still have to have my first 'real' fight (I dont count bashing AI onesies). My conclusion is that I find it quite complex, compared to Call of War.

      So do I understand that:

      1: the rock-paper-scissors (RPS) part weighs in very heavily? Both in pure effectiveness, but also combat order?
      2: In theory, you can attack with far superior numbers (and raw power output attacker vs raw power output defender) in unit count AND HP, but still lose heavily if the RPS is not in your favor (something like 15 cavs vs 10 infs, cavs lose?)
      3: Damage is nót distributed (somewhat) equally? In CoW...at least I think, damage % is roughly spreaded against all unit types, whether they are the natural nemesis, or natural sheep for said unit. I mean this in a mixed battle situation of course.

      I see some conflicting theories flying around here, and not all are written well in regard to spaces/interpunction and other grammar nazies favorite tools;) ).

      So far I am very interested to learn more about this game, as its quite different compared to the other Bytro games, and looks to be a 'Europa Universalis light' - and I mean that as a compliment. I'd like to avoid being routed by the first semi-experienced player just because my understanding of the battle engine is still 'too COW-ish.'
    • Well you're gonna hate my grammar then..
      In relation to the cavalry dying by infantry, it would be because the infantry is stronger and all this proof is in your research tree. By tapping that tiny blue button on corner of everything you research. Armies carry the most information of them all. As a standard Infantry is tougher than cavalry (in this game, as we all know this is furthest from the truth), till a higher level is reached. Calvary is tougher than canons( I didn't make the rules). And canon will wipe out infantry. Another bunch of factors exist, like moral (it may normally mean happiness, but in the paper it reads a loss- of lives); which you can lose by crossing a desert just to get to the battle field. Time is another factor..like troops engagements (reinforcements or purposeful troops entering the battle in between the RPS trick).
      Read the Research. Things don't have to be this complicated. :D
    • slushfund wrote:

      It doesn't look right. Probably a bug. Your ships should have taken. Your newspaper should give a report on casualties. I keep forgetting the look at ship screen . Sorry that happen. Next time please put in Support bottom of main page and important to leave game #.
      My ships had taken (see video).
      But my ships and opp ships had equal HP casualties = 30 HP.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by war-play ().